What ever happened to “The customer is always right.”?

February 18, 2008 on 9:50 pm | In Uncategorized | By Shadow |

There was a time, once and long ago, where the customer’s feedback was actually important to the sales of a company’s product. Now, you buy them or you don’t, because they’re not hurting financially. But yet we still continue to buy their sub-par products because of one reason or another. But should you suggest something that makes it better; you’re not part of the solution, you’re the problem.

Computer Operating System companies are prime examples of this.  If the product doesn’t have what you want, too bad. Buy the more expensive product or go somewhere else. Or better yet… wait until the next release and buy the same product again with that feature for twice the price. But don’t suggest anything, it’s against company policy to take suggestions.

Video Game companies are not exempt from this philosophy, either. You buy their product, and then ideas for improvements roll around. If they think of it, it’s gold and rolled out.  If YOU think of it, it’s against company policy to hear it out. After all, customers bought the product as-is, so it must not need changes by the consumer.

This is not limited to just those two examples, either.

If companies are not going to listen, they need to see bankruptcy and boycotts, not profits and sales. Nobody speaks up in number, so they continue to get their greed money. The few that do speak up get the run around. There are (although very few) exceptions, but they don’t make much of a difference, which is very saddening.

If anyone has any ideas of what could be done to make changes, let me know. People need a voice, and deserve that much if not even more than that.

31 Comments »

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  1. If I give you an idea, and then you implement it, then that idea is still mine. Some IP bullshit ya know?

    Comment by QBasicer — February 18, 2008 #

  2. I think i see your point, Q. However, there is more than one perspective for what you said, so I’ll address it for the sake of my side of this discussion:

    1.) If you were explicit in your mentioned idea, that’s true, so credit has to be given to you for your idea, BUT the other has to recieve it for implementation. It’s two way, ideally, but if the implementor recieves no credit, then that’s more like “true” I.P. and quaifies for I.P. Bull****.

    2.) If you gave me an idea that wasn’t explicitly stated (that is, you say one thing that makes me think of something else) Then credit doesn’t have to be given (although by all means it should be.).
    Mostly I.P. for the implementor, but not completely, as it was from a two way source.

    3.) This one depends. If you were willing to give that idea away on agreed upon conditions, then they don’t have to give credit (but again, they really should.). (Many different forms of I.P. arise from this route, but I.P. doesn’t have to be the only way to go on this one.)

    And while I.P. sucks as it stands currently, it was initially developed to give credit where due and prevent theft (if I remember correctly), but it went the wrong road quite quicky. Companies today use it in the wrong fashion to make more money from things that don’t belong to them (just as they do with patents) but then again, the original thought was protection and crediting, not to claim credit as it does now while stealing ideas. There are still ways to protect yourself without having to come to I.P.

    And speaking of I.P…. There is a web site just for teaching children I.P.! That’s just wrong, especially if sharing is caring like I was taught in school. :-)

    Comment by Shadow — February 19, 2008 #

  3. Someone suggest to Capcom to make MegaMan-X-Zero-Battle-Network-Legend 53 quick!

    While we’re at it we have to petition Square/Enix to make Final Fantasy MMCXXVII Adventure Online!

    America Online hear my plea! Please, please make AOL 14!

    Comment by BioHazard — February 19, 2008 #

  4. Large companies have to be very careful about IP, even the smallest slip can cause catastrophic results. The biggest problem with IP is that it’s abused.

    Comment by QBasicer — February 19, 2008 #

  5. Not entirely what I mean, but not far off either. Take a look at the Nintendo Wii, for example. I was reading a site recently with channel ideas that were actually great ideas, and would not be hard to pull off. Unfortunately, they will never see the light of day outside of being only that–an idea.

    Chew on this idea: Everybody Votes Channel upgrade - Feedback. That was a good one idea I found out there. Instead of asking if I have a pet or believe in UFOs, ask things like “What should be released for the next VC game?”, “What do you like about (insert game name here)?”, and “How can we improve our services?”. (This upcoming part is my idea, but if somene else thought of it too, sorry in advance!) They could also add the ability added to comment on the current poll (ala forum thread style.), ’since after all, they added USB Keyboard ability it’s no real hard feat to type now LOL. That would be my ideal channel, but there are a huge number of others on the net that beat that one out 100 fold.

    EDIT: I have to agree there, Q. I was typing as you posted LOL

    EDIT 2: In regards to I.P., though, Customer ideas were the basis for two Mega Man Characters (Contest winners). So the fact is, they CAN do it, but currently DON’T.

    Comment by Shadow — February 19, 2008 #

  6. I can’t even imagine the staff load to approve entries. Especially the results list. Imagine they put up a poll for “What’s the best game ever” how many people would write “Grim Fandango” VS “GrimFandango” and countless Wiimote-induced misspellings? There would also have to be some kind of moderation system in place to take out entries like “Super Beat it ‘n Eat it.” and if they did remove entries, the people who wrote them would be up in arms about “The Mantendo is Keeping us Down!”. Plus, doesn’t the Everybody Votes channel get millions of votes each poll? I sure as heck don’t want to read and approve all of ‘em.

    You also have to think about the database requirements, millions of rows for each poll. Currently they have polls available that go way back, I’m sure it’s not a big deal storage-wise, but it’s still quite a bit of server work considering Nintendo’s channel servers must get hit billions of times a day.

    Comment by BioHazard — February 19, 2008 #

  7. That’s why they could easily outsource the reading to a different division, as they do Customer Service (Found out they do that yesterday.). Nintendo itself just needs to focus on the voting questions and see the numbers, leave the reading to another party to sum up and report. If they noticed someone posting intelligently, they could contact him/her if they desired for more details. All because there really is too much “Lolz 6r1m F@nd&ng0 RoXorz!” and not enough “Grim Fandango has a nice story, awesome gameplay and music that hooked me for hours.” with subsequent posts to follow. And speaking of Grim Fandango, Thanks for reminding me about it, I totally forgot. VGL, anyone? ;-)

    Comment by Shadow — February 19, 2008 #

  8. No matter who does it, it’s still an immense task that would cost tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars in man-hours. How are they going to make that back with the voting channel? You have to remember, Nintendo (or any other company) is a big business. Their job is to make money. Adding any kind of mass feedback system would cost too much in moderation costs to make it freely available. Other companies can get away without moderation, but Nintendo has to keep up their squeaky-clean family reputation.

    If you really want to get something done, e-mail the game’s publisher.

    “Dear [Publisher], I really enjoyed [Game] I liked it because [Reasons]. I’m sure myself and many other fans of [Game] would be grateful if you would sponsor future titles by [Developer]. Thank you, [Name (NOT PSEUDONYM)]”

    People whine all the time on public forums and such, but nobody important ever reads those.

    Comment by BioHazard — February 19, 2008 #

  9. Blogging about games I think is helpful too. Some companies regularly search blogs for comments about games (I know first hand), but the problem with feedback is whether it actually gets to where it needs to go. Developers need feedback on the engine, and the specific programmer would really benefit from some of this feedback. Usually this kind of information gets lost in an inbox somewheres inside a giant corp.

    Comment by QBasicer — February 19, 2008 #

  10. True, but then again, if they wanted MORE money than they currently get, that might more than pay for itself. Of course, they could up and charge for that sort of thing, making it subscription thus reducing the 1337-crap and get the more serious to give perspective.

    Q, once again, you posted while I was typing LOL But you have an excellent point.

    Another point is, why only games? What about the hardware aspects? Look at sony. They made small computers for Gaming units that aren’t used to their potential. Then there is Nintendo. The Wii is underpowered in hardware, but is used to its full potential. And the channels on the wii have truely limitless potential for entertainment and practicality, but so far has not been TRUELY explored, outisde of news and weather.

    Comment by Shadow — February 19, 2008 #

  11. I think games should have an in-game bug reporting system, and use a bugzilla type system. This has proven to be very helpful in tracking down problems with software and enhancing customer experience. Don’t forget we already pay a premium for games/software as it is.

    Comment by QBasicer — February 19, 2008 #

  12. That Bugzilla idea is a great one. That would be very useful for them.

    And games costing as much as they do right now is a good point also. They make money so its not like it’s a bad idea to listen more consumers, because consumer purchases = profits.

    Comment by Shadow — February 19, 2008 #

  13. I don’t think it would do much for the console market to have a bug tracker as bugs cannot be fixed. I suppose firmware things like Channels could be, but having a bugzilla for a console game would just be a wall of shame and no developer that wants to keep their rep would want that publicly accessible. I mean, a typical bug report would go as follows:

    You: If you go into this room with the thing and use this before that, you get stuck.
    Them: Yeah, sorry about that. Unfortunately, that bug is pressed into millions of Wii discs. There’s nothing we can do about it. Sorry.
    You: You still screwed up.
    Them: Yeah, our bad.

    Any publisher would look at that and think, “Man, these people need to test more. I don’t want to hire those programmers. They make mistakes.”

    Now of course this would be awesome for games that can actually get patched. Such as PC games. The only problem I see is getting flooded with general game questions.
    You: It’s too hard to get an epic flying mount.
    Them: Duh, that’s the point. It’s a freaking epic flying mount!

    Comment by BioHazard — February 19, 2008 #

  14. Don’t forget that usually there is at least two runs in a game, sometimes more, and that could be worked into the second run and up. Take value-priced games for example. They are the last run, but would benefit from fixes in the first two or three releases.

    Also, there is some forgiving to an extent, or Microsoft would not be so popular. (I know they aren’t popular by some standards, but for OS of choice people still continue to pay them for theirs.)

    Comment by Shadow — February 19, 2008 #

  15. Some consoles cannot be fixed, but new versions of the game on the shelves can be fixed, just like software updates that I think the 360 can do (I don’t know for sure). You bring a good point though, if the bugs are visible, it creates a bad rep (but perhaps that would encourage better code testing), and if it’s invisible, then there may be a /lot/ of dupes.

    Comment by QBasicer — February 19, 2008 #

  16. … to take all the fun glitches out. :)

    What do you mean I can’t get missingno in my version? I want [flower][grass] Nuggets! :( :(

    Comment by BioHazard — February 19, 2008 #

  17. Those are tagged as a ‘feature’.

    Comment by QBasicer — February 19, 2008 #

  18. Well, the Wii does have firmware updates, so console-wise fixing has already happened with Nintendo (There was a serious glitch that happened in default-firmware Wiis that was taken care of a while back.).

    Loading patches into memory would probably require more of it, but a Wii could likely be expanded in some regards, and if they took a clue from the 64, they will expand it or at least make it an option. Hard Drive, same issue. It actually NEEDS to be expanded, though, as small stuff takes up a lot of room on the small drive. I see patches but needs upgrades. To soften the blow, they can market it by making a sort of media channel that can access stuff on the Drive (like music or other misc stuff.) and market the shop channel more (Now you can store 1,000 VC Games and Wii-ware titles with little effort!). So even then, it CAN still work.

    For Missingno, that was lethal, screwing up the hall of fame, and worse if you caught it and saved. I encountered it the very first time I played and I didn’t even do the glitch activator. It was already active and I ran into it the moment I touched Cinnabar island. Worse yet, I was already damaged and close to fainting LOL But it was handy if you wanted money. 6th slot nugget or vitamins. :-)

    And looking up the post, you forgot Star Force in that list of MM games LOL

    Comment by Shadow — February 19, 2008 #

  19. Pfft, 6th slot nuggets and buy vitamins.

    If you look into why that glitch happens, I’m not sure whether to blame the programmers, unit capabilities or even the code compiler of the GameBoy.

    As far as “Glitch hall of fame” goes, I think TMG beats missingno out. It is in fact possible to get Mew without a gameshark. :)

    Comment by BioHazard — February 19, 2008 #

  20. Oh yeah, I totally forgot. Teleport Mew was the only other way to get it (unless you lived next door to nintendo.). And the topic has totally shifted, hasn’t it, Bio… ;-)

    Of course, that is also what happened. Nintendo actually used to listen to input in the early days. They (like this thread’s direction) just need to get with it again, and listen to the consumer, as should most companies.

    Comment by Shadow — February 19, 2008 #

  21. Yes, Shadow and I played Pokemon when we were kids and still do sometimes. Shows over, nothing to see here, move along.

    Aaaaaanyway… Look at the weather, all up there in the sky. It was up there yesterday too!

    Comment by BioHazard — February 19, 2008 #

  22. Oh don’t worry, so did I. Those were the days, I got disinterested at Yellow though (I owned both red and blue). I never got into the new fangled stuff, 151 was enough for me.

    Comment by QBasicer — February 19, 2008 #

  23. Well, something like Missingno should warrant a reporting system, in regards to QBasicer’s bugzilla-style reporting idea. I’m surprised they don’t have something similar already. While we’d lose many favorable glitches in the process (I love having inf. money and items in RPGs) it would at least make for cleaner games later, as long as the mistakes were learned from.

    With the topic being about FEEDBACK and LISTENING to consumers, a great idea for starting consumer feedback would be a new corporate campaign: Working together for better products. Fixing and improving products together, instead of favoring one over the other. Nintendo’s “Wii” product came from “We”, that is, “Us together”. Implementation was ok, but this would make it even better from the standpoints of making consumers quality products and the comapny profits in the process.

    Yeah, we all played, didn’t we… :-) I don’t know about pokemon now but I miss playing games all day like when I did play it. Now I’d sit in front of many different titles, but if I play something it has to be wortwhile, and that is what I miss: Worthwhile games.

    Comment by Shadow — February 19, 2008 #

  24. As far as worthwhile games go, as long as Blizzard and id are still in business, there will be good games/engines every once in a while.

    If only LucasArts would give up pimping out Star Wars like some kind of cheap space ho and get back to making adventure games, I’d tormentor in my pants. Those were some of the most worthwhile games I’ve ever had the honor to play.

    Actually, I just remembered, WoW has a built-in bug reporting system. It’s pretty cool. Fortunately I haven’t had to use it more than a time or two, but it is there.

    Comment by BioHazard — February 19, 2008 #

  25. Blizzard and ID do make good games (fond memories of Quake3 at Lan Partys come to mind, and not so fond ones like losing to Zergling rushes in StarCraft during the same day.). Of course, Lucas Arts does do other games, but those are few and far between now (Secret Weapons Over Normandy was fun, but of course, it too had x-wings and tie-fighters as unlockable fighter aircraft. To be kind i’ll spare you the crap pun expected here.)

    In regards to WoW, do they do anything with it, or is it like Microsoft and Apple error reporting?

    Comment by Shadow — February 19, 2008 #

  26. As far as I can tell things are being fixed. Blizzard is kind-of obligated to fix things because people are paying monthly to play their game. Sometimes patch release notes can be pretty crazy-huge.

    As far as general “suggestions” go (such as “There needs to be a flight master in this place nobody goes to.”, not so much I don’t think. I haven’t really been around long enough to tell. However, most of the “I wish there were a button that did X.” requests can be taken care of with addons.

    Comment by BioHazard — February 20, 2008 #

  27. Blizzard is different in a GOOD way. You won’t see Nintendo allowing game mods of ANY kind, and I don’t refer to cheat software/hardware. I mean, they don’t make editable games outside of THEIR APPROVED paramters, which are VERY STRICT. Pokemon: Give it vitamins for stats (up to 10), and one hold item. WoW: Allowed to Customize characters, make macros, view a ton of quests at once, better bag views, etc, etc, etc with mods (and to a lesser extent, without.).

    Big difference. If Nintendo allowed Mods, games would be less troublesome than they are and might even be something they haven’t been in a while: worth paying for. Instead you pay for crap. How about ID? Mods galore, and gotta love duct tape and madness. LOL Then there is the Metroid Prime series. Get weapons, use weapons, all as dictated by Nintendo, no Mods allowed. I’d like to see a Hyper Beam mod. That kicked serious *** in Super Metroid, and how about a Crystal Flash mod? Again, an awesome Super Metroid mod idea, and again, no mods allowed.

    Why pay $50 for a Nintendo game which allows nothing when you can pay the same for a configureable game that has online play? They need to pay attention, or people just might do that.

    Comment by Shadow — February 20, 2008 #

  28. How do you suggest mods be installed on a Wii? AFAIK Wii games can’t access the SD card slot. Are you supposed to burn it onto the Wii disc or something?

    The problem with modding on consoles is the general lack of expansion capability. Designing a mod system and exposing the editing systems take a lot of work to bug check for release.

    For example, I’m sure the level editors for most games are just tiny hacks written just to make the game. The programmers don’t really have to work too hard on the editors because nobody but the developers need to see them. Cleaning up and releasing all of a game’s dev tools would be awful unless you designed your system to be easily edited from the get-go (see id stuff). Again, it’s just more cost.

    As far as Cost vs. Content goes, take Pokemon, WoW and Doom for example. When you buy Pokemon, you give Nintendo $30. The end. Whether you like the game or not, that’s all they get. Why bother adding more features unless you have to beat a prequel? (Diamond/Pearl has to be cooler than Ruby/Sapphire or people won’t buy it.) I mean, if they added editability to Pokemon, why would you want to buy the next versions? The same thing happened with Doom. Did anyone buy Final Doom? Why when you could get user created content that’s just as good for free?

    Now look at World of Warcraft. People pay $15 a month to play that game. I can tell you, that thing must cost a freaking fortune to keep up. If there is an annoying bug or something that deters people from playing, they stop paying for it. That would be bad for Blizzard. Therefore they are obligated to fix annoyances or at least provide an ability for you to fix them yourself.

    So why can id make things like Doom with full editability and offer it for a one time fee? Because they are id software. They don’t make games, they make game engines and want to show off the kind of things you can do with it without modifying the source. If they can make a bit of extra money by selling a pseudo-game attached to it, cool beans. How many of the games based on id’s engines are editable?

    Remember, these companies are in it to make money, not to make your life or the world better. Notice how they aren’t called “Nintendo Organization”, “The Blizzard Foundation” or “The id Software Movement”.

    Comment by BioHazard — February 21, 2008 #

  29. Mods could be installed by using something called a “screwdriver”. Those who use laptops exclusively tend to forget what those are, but they are actually quite nice. ;-)

    In all actuality, there are mods for the Wii available now. Thing is, they are not smiled on by Nintendo, so as such Wiis become bricks when they are updated with a mod (can anyone say iPhone?). Even in Nintendo’s license agreement, you are forbidden to use 3rd party mods. So they could make first party ones and there you go.

    Ok, so we know its possible to mod, but will they get to a point where they say “ok, lets add ram and a drive.” or just release compression as the plan is now? (Hint: Compression. And speaking of mods, I meant software. :p)

    As for Editability, it would be a nice feature. I would love to see a Pokemon have Struggle as a move BEFORE running out of all other moves. Why? Aside from comic relief, it would be something not generally given: AN OPTION. And why not have a 6th slot filled to infinity? You beat the freakin’ game! And how fun is it to fight a fleet of level 5 bidoofs for EVs at lv. 50? It’s pathetic! Make all bidoofs lv. 50 with better moves? Sweet. It just needs to be kept fun.

    For WoW, at least there are mods. Although yes, they break the mod in the next verison if it is too unbalancing for whatever reason, at least they are allowed at all. $15 a month? Last time I looked at their site it was more than that. Now I just might get it (seriously.). :-)

    ID is cool for a variety of reasons. Not just limiting it only to windows is a plus (Blizzard gets points for mac usage for their games, too.), and gets HUGE points with me for putting their games on Linux. Does ID release games to Mac? I don’t know, but Linux? They…Rock!
    (And in regards to Final Doom, I got it LOL, admittedly, it was in a collection, but nevertheless…)

    Comment by Shadow — February 22, 2008 #

  30. Well, as far as modding Pokemon goes, all the things you mention can be done simply with a cheat device. Plus, fighting a wave of Bidoofs (or anything else) in a row would defeat the purpose of random encounters. What would stop you from fighting a ton of Mewtwos for tons of EVs? (You know, killing a zillion Bidoofs for defense EVs won’t help you if you are trying to beat me as everyone in my team is quite multi-talented. :) )

    WoW …blahblah… Now I just might get it (seriously).

    BE CAREFUL! WoW is very dangerous! It will suck your life away! However, If you do decide to come into the fold, let Miyth know so she can use her Recruit a Friend thing to get a free month so I don’t have to pay for another one. :)

    Comment by BioHazard — February 25, 2008 #

  31. /me is STILL considering getting it, despite knowing fully better.

    As for Miyth gettting a reccomendation, I don’t think so. :P Because A.) you have been trying to convince me to get it all along so I’d sooner reccomend YOU and B.) Miyth rarely talks to me ’since certain events happened.

    In conclusion, life sucks T_T, AND congratulations with your newly leveling up. I hear you learned the move “awesomeness”. ;-)

    Comment by Shadow — February 25, 2008 #

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